Continuing our week-long escapade through the topic of Music, I have always been pressed with the issue of the music itself - that is, the sound of music (the hills are alive.... sorry). I've heard it said before, The Bible doesn't contain musical notes. So, how can we tell if a certain sound of music is glorifying to God? I mean, if the lyrics are solid, can they lose their validity if put to a certain sound of music?
To test this point, I've decided to get myself in trouble and actually pick out a few different clips from four different songs. The lyrics of the clips are included below. Then there is a link to hear the actual clips. I am suggesting that the lyrics to all of these clips are glorifying to God. When I write them in this blog, God is exalted... My question to "you" is: Does the style, the sound of music Aid in glorifying God, Do nothing in regards to glorifying God, or detract from glorifying God? And of course, opinions are great, but you get credibility of you can attach a Bible verse.
Audio Clip # 1:
(quoting and paraphrasing Revelation 19:6 and Revelation 5:12):
"Alleluia, holy, holy, are You Lord God Almighty. Worthy is the Lamb. Worthy is the Lamb. You are holy, holy, are You Lord God Almighty..."
Audio Clip # 2:
(Psalm 18:2 paraphrasing)
You are my salvation. You are my fortress. You are my salvation, in Whom I trust. You are my salvation. You are my fortress. You are my salvation.
Audio Clip # 3:
All powerful. He's unchangeable. He's inmovable, unstoppable. It's the gospel, it's the power of the Almighty God through His holy blood.
All powerful. He's unchangeable. He's inmovable, unstoppable. It's the gospel, it's the power of the Almighty God through His holy blood.
Audio Clip # 4:
(Psalm 8:4-5)
What is man, that Thou art mindful of him? and the son of man that Thou visitest him? Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honor, honor.
Ok, I've put some extremes in there to try to help us make this point. My personal request would be that if you comment on any, that you would comment on all 4.
Looking for your thoughts...
20 comments:
OK I will be the first. I believe that Galatians 5:17 is applicable when it comes to music styles.
This verse teaches the flesh and the spirit lusteth against eachother and they are contrary the one to the other. Therefore if you are feeding one you are not feeding the other. There are music styles that minister to your flesh - if they do, they cannot minister to your spirit. If it ministers to your flesh it is not an "Aiding in glorifying God
Galatians 5:17 - the flesh lusteth against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh so that they are contrary the one to the other so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Good principle... So, which of the four styles included would you say minister to the flesh and which of the four minister to the spirit?
Mrs. Hinds always is a safe bet. Her music is truly of God - I don't think she's too far off from how David would have sung his songs. The 1st three - the music is the same as the world's music.
junk, junk, junk, GOOD
Gal 5:17 - exactly - #1-3 flesh satisfying entertainment driven - album selling, dance to music that is mimicing the worlds music and not ministering to the spirit - alluring or agressive - the flesh response is not one that leads to worship.
versus understandable words, music that allows for the words to get the attention and focus, pace that is slow enough to follow easily - it almost sounds PECULIAR and SEPARATE compared to what I could hear on every secular station in the states...doesnt sound like the noise of war like 2 of the others clearly did
I don't see how you could say that a type of music ministers to the flesh and not the spirit. Psalm 150 calls for praise to be made with: "trumpet, timbrel and dance, loud cymbals, high sounding cymbals."
Why would song # 2 be junk? Or answer that question worded this way: What would he have to change in order for his song to be good instead of junk? I didn't have any problem with it.
I wonder how many people like a certain song because that is what there expected to like? If someone likes song #4 is that because everyone else in there church body would say #4? If someone says song #1 is that because they are a more liberal Christian and that is what that church body listens to? I think you could listen to #1 and be in the spirit or the flesh. You can just as easily listen to #4 and be in the flesh or the spirit. I can't imagine anyone liking #3, but... that does not mean because it sounds bad to my ears that it does not edify the saint and give glory to God! #2 would fit the mold also. Discernment, discernment, discernment.
Mike, just to clarify, everybody likes # 4 because it is song by a woman with one of the most beautiful voices in the world, a godly woman that has raised godly children - and listening to # 4 would put you back in the Spirit if you were in the flesh... :) And if anyone comments otherwise, let's see how long your comment lives!
I agree with mike's comment of discernment. Common sense and discernment are God given abilities to determine the value/ godliness of anything, and should be used. I am NOT saying that 'what's right for me might not be right for you' but more along the lines of
1 Cor 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
God has given us the ability to determine right from wrong and we will be judged by Him accordingly. Personally i think people make a really big deal about a relatively small thing in music. I believe that regardless of how the music sounds, for the most part 'Christian' musicians are trying to 1. glorify God, and 2. sell records, admittedly not necessarily in that order, but who am I to judge... If i don't like a style of music i won't listen to it.
1 Cor 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, (or listen?) or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
i also can't imagine that some of the God crush my enemies songs in the Psalms were all nice soft Psalm 23 harps and violins type music... maybe i'm wrong.
my thoughts;) and andy #4 is def. the best... although i'm sure your mom would be sad to hear you describe her voice as only 'one of' intead of the best voices;)
Not to cross the male/female line at all, but I happen to know of a certain couple that the husband notices the music, and the wife notices the words almost to the exclusion of the music.
I agree with the Barone's comments. But I don't, however, believe that one song has the ability to minister only to the flesh, while another can minister only to the spirit.
I understand Victoria and anonymous' points, but I believe the issue is one of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
We are to judge ourselves, and a true follower of Christ will be willing to submit to the authority and conviction of the Holy Spirit. A saved person seeking God's direction will- in all areas- gauge their decision by scripture.
1Sa 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
This verse tells me I may not understand another's decision, but if I truly know them to be a follower of Christ, I cannot judge their motive behind the choice. I can in good conscience question the choice, and perhaps give them reasons to consider that may sway their decision, but the ultimate responsibility of "conviction" is Gods.
Just one final thought...
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
What if you had music with no lyrics at all, could that minister to a person or glorify God? Say like the techno music that they play at drunken, sexual, rave parties? You know (or hopefully you don't), thummping bass and drum lines interwoven with electronica, could that be God honoring? Is it even as good as being "vain" or is it worse? perhaps sensual, devilish?
Ok, a question for you "Discerning people" (That is, you used the word 'discernment' in your post: Mike, Matt)... Anonymous brought up a particular style of music - the "techno music" - in your discernment, does that sound being made honor God?
I would agree with the "World's music people" (That is, they used the word 'world' in their post: Victoria, Aanonymous) that the techno music is a style of music that does not bring honor to God. Therefore it is vain at best, and should not be in the Christian's CD player.
Can you "discerners" justify a Christian listening to techno? Would that be ok? Or would your discernment say that it is wrong - and if so, How come?
Man Andy, What kinda trouble you trying to start on here? Shouldn't you be working on KJV Only reasons #9, and #10?
i will use the same verse again but emphasize what i think answers your question andy.
1 Cor 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the POWER of any.
i understand what the comment was about the techno music and bass lines without words (i would first say that if you're at a drunk sexual rave it doesn't matter what kind of music you are listening to;)
but if that's the kind of music that you enjoy listening to, and it is not a temptation to you, then yes i would say you can listen to it and it is possible for it to glorify God because i believe everything can be done (is done) to the glory of God. just as further explanation, lets say that God has given me a talent of music, and techno is the particular type of music i'm best at making, and i make music to the best of my ability to glorify God. i don't think you can tell me that my doing so is wrong or vain... (for the record i can't even play a kazoo)
In Daniel 5:23 (Daniel reading the writing on the wall after the pagan party), Daniel says that they did not glorify God. So everything is not done to the glory of God... But that's another discussion. I know that God uses bad things to get glory (Nebuchadnezzar comes to mind), but that's why I used the word "honor."
If God gave you the talent of bartending, you should not use it for the glory of God. You should separate yourself from the bar. So, to say that God gave you the talent for a particular 'style' of music doesn't necessitate that you should try to use it for God.
i suppose i could argue the point a little more strenuously if i liked listening to techno music;)
I was thinking more about this... I said, "If God gave you the talent of bartending, you should not use it for the glory of God. You should separate yourself from the bar." I would like to clarify this a bit. You should still separate yourself from the alcohol bar, but if you were to use those talents to help serve at, let's say, a coffee bar, that would be a good thing.
I feel like a bit of an interloper here, but I'll post some thoughts, if no one objects.
In my opinion, none of the 4 music samples minister to the flesh, because they have the meaning & intention of praising God. I cannot pull up any scriptures off the top of my head that back up my position, only life experience. As a short-term missionary, I have been blessed to listen to praises being sung to God in a language I could not understand and sung differently from what I've ever heard before in my life, but it was moving because it was unto God. In the same way, if the ghetto kids in my neighborhood like song sample #3 and "get it", who am I to say it is ministering to the flesh and not to the spirit?I don't like rap music, but that doesn't mean that God can't be praised in it. I think of Acts 10 where Peter realizes that he cannot call something common that God has made clean. Maybe not a direct corrolation, but maybe there is something there.
Moses sang and David sang, but their middle eastern *style* of singing might not "minister" to the average American. But if a singer's heart is right toward God, that ministry WILL touch hearts. If one is so distracted by the music that they cannot see the glory going to God, I question if that person's heart is right toward God.
One last thought, in Rev. 4:8 the beasts are *SAYING* "Holy, Holy, Holy..." to the Lord. Not singing at all. Hmmm.
Rachel, I wonder what your thoughts are on my "final" post of this week that I discussed music - Music - the final word (yeah right!) . I mention some of the ideas you bring up, but add some more thoughts. I do not agree with your principle that because they did it with the right intentions then it must be good. It appears that Nadab & Abihu did their deeds in Numbers with the right intentions and that Uzzah touched the ark of the covenant with the right intentions, but they were all killed because they did not do it God's way. So, that principle by itself is not sufficient to say that as long as I do it to please God that I can do anything.
Thanks for commenting, I do appreciate your thoughts. I don't get what you were saying about Rev 4:8 being not singing. What was your point there?
Are we not starting this discussion in the agreement that the words in the 4 song samples are basically glorifying to God? They are not blasphemous in their lyrics, although not necessarily the most eloquent. That is what I meant by the intention of the song. Or perhaps I misunderstood and there is no such primary supposition. I do know what you mean about Uzzah--right motive, wrong method. I thought the discussion was only about the genre or style of music, which as you state in the "final word" blog, God does not give us any specific guidelines about musical styles. Pretty much every discussion like this ends up with opinions based on emotional response or cultural appreciation for any given style of music. Therefore, I try to judge music based on the lyrics and maybe what I know of the performer, if we're talking about recordings as opposed to singing myself.
About Revelation -- it just makes me think & wonder. Some people make such a big deal about music and spend so much effort trying to figure out what is the holiest kind, because that is what we'll be singing in heaven, right? But maybe we'll just be saying worshipful things.
Maybe music is like colors. We like them, and they must glorify God since He created them, and they can be used to help people (Christian or pagan), and sinful human nature can certainly misuse them, but they're really insignificant in a lot of ways. Does it really matter what color the carpet is in the church building? No, what matters is if the Word of God is taught, if souls are saved, if the body is edified, etc.
No, there were no presuppositions that all 4 were good. The point of Uzzah was this: He wanted to please God (just like those that produce Christian Rap for example[giving them the benefit of the doubt here]), but his method of trying to please God was not accepted. Your prior suggestion was that because they have good lyrics, the songs are pleasing to God, but the question here is now: Because they are taking the 'sound' from a devilish culture (the secular rap culture is undoubtedly devilish) does that make the method they are trying to use displeasing to God?
I recognize that you judge music based on the lyrics, but we need to consider if God judges it based on more than that.
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