I will try to keep these posts short to make it graspable enough to be considered a lunch-time thought - though I imagine I will fail frequently in this. And you all can tell from the time that I posted this and because of the detailed explanation ahead of it, I have been working on this post for a couple days, not just off the top of my head!
Anyway, I am reading a book by Lawrence Vance called, The Other Side of Calvinism. After reading the first 200 pages of basic history of the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism, he finally started on the 5 points of "TULIP." A chapter for each doctrine. As I read through the book, I plan to post here some of the major themes that are written, and then I will interact a little with it. One thing that may disappoint some is that I tend to completely disregard arguments that I find weak or hollow, so I may not mention them at all. I will try to focus on what I consider to be the major issues at hand. So... here goes:
Total Depravity:
The doctrine of Total Depravity is the teaching that man, because of the Fall of Genesis 3, when sin entered into the world, has been born with a sin nature. This sin nature depraves man of being able to save himself. The point where both Arminius and Calvin would agree: "Human nature has been and is utterly corrupted by sin so that man is totally incapable of doing anything to accomplish his salvation." Man does wicked deeds because he is depraved. He is not just depraved because of his wicked deeds.
- Romans 5:12-21 is a great text to show that man inherited Adam's sinful nature...
- Romans 3:10-18 is a great text to show how sinful man has become...
- Ephesians 2:3 shows that even born-again Christians were in times past sinners by nature...
Where the two parties go their own way is with the idea of Total Inability. Calvinism says that man "of himself, cannot repent and believe." That is, when confronted with the Gospel message and Holy Spirit conviction, a man is not able of himself to respond positively to that. Arminian theology would say that God has given all men the ability to respond positively to the gospel and Spirit's conviction, or to resist it. Both sides agree that man's human nature by itself cannot just start to believe, but rather the Holy Spirit has to do a work first - the Calvinist says the Spirit has to quicken (make alive) a man, to regenerate a man, to re-birth (born again) a man, in order for him to be able to believe. This quickening comes apart from anything on man's side of things. Once he is born again, he then is able to believe. Arminius says that the faith comes as a response to the Holy Spirit, and once a man believes, he then is born-again and becomes a son of God.
The agreement is this: Man is sinful by nature. Do you really have to teach a little child how to lie? how to be selfish? how to steal? You sure do have to teach them how to do good though. Man became sinner because of his nature passed on to him by his first father, Adam. The wages, the penalty for that sin is double-death. [Revelation 20:14 speaks of the second death. The first is the physical death when the body dies. The second is after the Judgment and is eternal.] When mankind was at enmity with God, that is, they were God's enemy (which we are by nature), God still showed unmerited favor, grace, by sending His Son Jesus to pay that penalty for the sin of mankind (Romans 5:8). Without God's grace, man would be without hope, having violated God's law and thus being unrighteous by God's standards. "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith He loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)" (Ephesians 2:4-5).
To the praise of the glory of His grace!
22 comments:
A bit wordy...who do you think you are Putney?
I'm sorry are you complaining about the length of my post? Boy, I guess I was just hoping you would be a little bit more THANKFUL!
I wasn't being unthankful, I just thought you were having an identity problem.
Andy -
This is a balanced post! Way to represent what both sides believe!
If you are going to pre-think your lunch-time thoughts, you should call it an appetizer.
As I read this over again, I think you do a good job conveying that salvation is wholy a work of God, and yet there is still human responsiblity.
If there is a human responsibility then that would not be "total" depravity, just kinda depraved. i do believe.
Dave, it is pretty bold to negate human responsibility all together – being that even Calvinists do not do that. Below are some notable Calvinists on the subject:
C. H. Spurgeon – “I believe that the two great doctrines of human responsibility and divine sovereignty have both been brought out more prominently in the Christian Church by the fact that there is a class of strong-minded, hard-headed men who magnify sovereignty at the expense of responsibility; and another earnest and useful class who uphold and maintain human responsibility oftentimes at the expense of divine sovereignty.”
John MacArthur stated – “Election does not exclude human responsibility or the necessity of each person to respond to the gospel by faith.”
You seem to like to regurgitate Piper
John Piper - Therefore, in order to see how God's sovereignty and man's responsibility perfectly cohere, one need only realize that the way God works in the world is not by imposing natural necessity on men and then holding them accountable for what they can't do even though they will to do it.
I don't always agree with Barone, but in this case he brings up some good stuff.
by saying human responsiblity, i thought you where say we had some part in our own salvation. which i do not believe. i think it's all of God and not of us at all by any means. i would agree that we have to come to faith in God. but even there i think thats through a work of the spitit, and all of the men you listed would agree. so do we have to respond? of course. but by what means do we come to that place where we can respond is the real question i think!
I, by no means, have all of this figured out, and that's why right now I am studying out the issue to settle it to myself. But, what you wrote highlights a problem that I see with Calvinism. Here's my reasoning:
IF:
1) Man is Totally Unable to respond to the Gospel with faith, unless the Holy Spirit first regenerates that man (that's what the post says Calvinists teach)
AND:
2) Man is still Responsible, and will be held accountable if he does not respond positively
THEN:
God is holding man responsible for something that he is unable to do.
My logic is reasonable there. If you disagree with the Conclusion, then you have to disagree with either #1 or #2 above. You can't accept #1 and #2 as being correct and say the conclusion is wrong.
So, which one of those 2 would you say you don't agree with? Or, explain to me how my logic is wrong.
And most importantly, I still need a Bible verse that says that faith in God is a work of the Spirit. We have to come back to "What saith the Scripture?"
Ok Andy, ill give this a shot though I know your biblical knowledge triples mine.
You say that your two points can not both be true, for God can not hold us in judgment if he is the one in control and not us. the apostle Paul address this in Romans nine,
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
So I have to agree with the Apostle here, there is no unrighteousness with God though he will have mercy on whom he wills not us. By no means do I want to put my self in a place where im telling God what’s right and what’s wrong.
As for the faith being a working of God, here is my sad attempt to show you this. It can not be done with a signal verse!
1. we know that men are all unable to do good, or to seek that which is good.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
2. Because we are dead in trespass’s and sin we must be brought back to life. God can then draw us in and we can then, and only then come to faith.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth;
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
3. Unless God draws us we can not respond. To respond is to have faith.
Jer 30:21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
4. All who the father calls WILL come.
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
So there it is, I believe through there you can see that a dead man can not have faith, it’s the spirit that quickeneth, God who call’s and God gets them whom he Calls…..amen to that!!! But I know you can explain away every thing I have said here, if not the free willers would not be able to sleep at night. Ill not keep this going any longer as I believe we can both find better things to do with our time. And plus…..Christians have been going back and forth on this topic from the death of Christ till today. But I do look forward to your reply all the same, they are always very sharp!
Dave, I am willing to work through this with you - I am still learning the different views on the subject to make sure that what I believe is in fact what God's word says. I will change what I believe if I am convinced that the Bible is teaching different than what I believe. Too many people will get caught up defending what they believe to be true just so they can be right, or just so they can defend somebody that they want to believe is right. If anyone comes to a disagreement with that mindset, then the time spent is just fighting and not worth it.
That being said, I need to nitpick a little bit. Right at the beginning you said about me, "You say that your two points can not both be true, for God can not hold us in judgment if he is the one in control and not us."
That is not what I said. I asked you if you believed both of those points were true or not. If you did, then the conclusion I gave was that "God is holding man responsible for something that he can not do." I did not say those points cannot be true - or that God cannot hold us in judgment because he's in control.
I'd like you to read my previous post and answer whether you think one of my two points is wrong, or if you think my reasoning is wrong. Then I will move on with more on your post. But if we get on to too many things at once, we won't be able to get through them all.
Sound good?
1) Man is Totally Unable to respond to the Gospel with faith, unless the Holy Spirit first regenerates that man (that's what the post says Calvinists teach)
i say yes to this
AND:
2) Man is still Responsible, and will be held accountable if he does not respond positively
and yes to this
Ok, you stopped short of the last part of that, the conclusion. Do you agree with the logical next step of those two facts which is: "God is holding man responsible for something that he is unable to do"?
thou wilt say unto me,*andy :0)* why doth he yet find fault? for who hath resisted his will? nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, whay hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
men had they're chance and they blew it!!
remember matt 20, they murmmer against the good man of the house, he replys - is it not lawful for me to do what i will with mine own? is thine eye evil because i am good.....well i know he is not talking about election here, but think about it...because he is giving out good according to his will men think he is unjust.
he can do what he wants and will's and be just in it cuz he is God, because he made us, because he gave men a chance at free will and they fell, because you DO have to respond he says all who do not come unto him will all likewise parish, it's not his fault men are hard hearted! so just cuz he gives good to whom he wills does not mean he is unjust in it, it's his free gift to give to the praise of his glory!!!
Ok, you didn't say yes, or no, but I assume from your post that you agree with the conclusion: "God is holding man responsible for something that he is unable to do."
I don't want to put words in your mouth, so if you disagree with that, let me know.
I also read that you are saying that God is Just and Right even when He holds man responsible for something that he is unable to do. Is that correct?
Ok, so I ask you to clarify whether you agree that this is your position:
"Man is unable to respond to the Spirit with faith unless the God (through the Holy Spirit) first makes him born again. God holds man responsible if he does not believe. And it is Just for God to hold man responsible for failing to do something that he is not able to do." If you agree that that is your position, I'll move on in your previous comment.
dude im not going to say God is holding men responsible for something they can not do..cuz me and you both did it. so men can do it. how we did it is another thing all together. i think the thing of it is, is that "you" feel that if the two points are true then God is unjust in his dealings with men. and i think the verses i have posted seem to cover that. but no man, im not saying that...plus its not the only end to your two points being true.
anyway, listen my brother we can go back and forth on this for the next 2000 years....Christians have been at it almost that long already....but maybe we should just sit down ant talk it out someday....this will never end this way.... ya know?
please let me just say one more thing,
for the past almost two years i believed very close to what most of you believe and so i know why you feel this way. i can tell you i almost hated the doctrines of grace!! i have only just started to understand them and so i am in no way fit to debate it. i can tell you that it's something that i could no longer ignore and something i had to come to terms with on my own. and sense i have, i have come to love the doctrine and in turn it has 100% freed me from myself and the burdens that where threating my Christian walk. i can not start to explain the why, but can say that its so deep and so profound that you just have to go through it to fully understand what im talking about. it was an unbelievably extreme struggle between God and self. im just thankful that he is everything that i am not.
"dude im not going to say God is holding men responsible for something they can not do..cuz me and you both did it."
Point number 1 was that man cannot believe without God making him born again. You just said that "me and you both did it." But what you say you believe is that you didn't do that.
My point is, the lost man who God did not regenerate, according to what you are saying, never could get saved because he is unable to believe. And that is just for God to do. What I will say is this: If God is doing that, then it is just and we have a mis-construed notion of what justice is. But I believe the Bible does not say that.
I don't hate or dislike the doctrines of grace. I cling to them for my eternal life. By grace I am saved through faith - it is nothing of myself. I have nothing praiseworthy in me, my salvation is all of God. I won't let somebody else's misconstruction of a doctrine steal the terms from my vocabulary.
I do hope that you continue to grow in your Christian walk and that God would continue to give you (and me!) victories as we go. Out of all this mess that we try to sift through when talking about Calvinism and Arminianism, I would cling to the perseverance of the saints. A man that is saved has the Holy Spirit of God in him! The Holy Spirit has sealed that man and will continue to work in him to bring him to perfection. And we'll see that as we walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
Dave, I'd love to keep working through this issue with you. Calvinism has flaws - especially the breed of Calvinism that you have been posting about. The debate has gone on for centuries, that is true, but you're now making your new decision based upon what men have said - without hearing the other side of the argument (is referenced much in our church, but not taught).
So, it's up to you in your next post - if you post :)
I love you, Dave. Don't think that anything I've said is out of a spiteful or mean spirit. If any has come across that way, I ask your forgiveness!
To the praise of the glory of His grace!
thanks brother, i know your not saying any thing out of spite. what kind of brothers are not able to debate something with out still having love one for the other right!
one thing though,
"but you're now making your new decision based upon what men have said-without hearing the other side of the argument (is referenced much in our church, but not taught)."
i have to kindly disagree, see this was one of the first things that popped up right after i was saved and i pretty much made a decision then based on what men had told me. oh they used the bible to back up they're case but i never really took the time to look at it on my own, about three months ago i made up my mind to go through my faith one little step at a time and find out what i believe! this was just one of the the first things on the list, right after if i thought it ok to have ear rings or not!! lol, i took them out for good this time!~D
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